Well, I am getting sick of this country real real fast…..I am on the verge of moving to another country and renouncing my citizenship here because our government is nothing but a bunch of idiotic money hungry assholes with only the interest of padding their own pockets and not helping the people of this country or doing what they can for the people in this country. If this country’s government would keep it’s nose out of everyone else’s business then perhaps things could get better here in this country, but I somehow doubt that.
You’re not the first American that I’ve heard voice this type of opinion, and it’s pretty easy to get a feel for the climate down there.
Kick him out of office – you (the people) have the power – no? :-)
Well, that’s easy for you to say, Little Miss “I left the United States years ago and am never coming back”!
Bush is a one-termer, that’s for sure. Better to stick it out the next two years and hope things get better afterwards. Once you denounce your American citizenship, you can never get it back, and probably end up on a lotta federal shitlists. Might wanna keep that in mind if you have family here and stuff…
say, would you mind keeping a ear pressed to the floor for professional leads in the TO area that may be of great interest to me?
sponsorship would be key — and the holy grail — but the commitment for me to immigrate as i began to halfway try in 1996 and 1997 no longer bears the solitary ideological underpinnings i retained then as it once did. now, it’s a matter of my safety, security, sense of knowing i have reason to be there and efforts to avert being, ummm, professionally blacklisted (if you’re scratching your head here, see 2001 lawsuit for reference and how american HR people most likely know me by first name thanks to certain HR publications. email me off-LJ if you’re still befuddled).
i’ve never felt hopeful or safe here. but that’s never been the case for me in any of TO, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Windsor, Vancouver or points between. besides, feeling safe imbues order, and order imbues structure.
it’s excessively difficult to build with structure here these days.
anyhow.
SUPPOSEDLY we have the power, but it’s really frightening to realize that we the people have so little when it comes to our government…. anyway………….. I am still thinking of leaving the country..
Well, considering I am Native American Indian, I don’t have much say so in the government of this country to begin with because we Native Americans are still looked down on and persecuted and bullied even to this day, but that’s a political debate I do not want to broach at this time as I tend to get highly heated up over it. And since I feel this government, THE USA has no right to govern over me anyway, my tribe does, I still have to adhere to the federal laws that are put forth. However even our own government ignores the Constitution and the bill of rights when they want something or someone… Anyway…. I have family here, but only siblings and an aunt and grandmother…. My grandmother would not know if I left and my aunt would tell me to do what I think is best, and my siblings could care less what I do…
I’m a very proud Canadian… we have a good place up here. You’d probably make a good one, you’ve got the anti-american down anyway *winks*
Well, good luck… I have hope that it’ll all turn out alright (though, it still doesn’t make it right).
Of course, it’s your choice. I just thought I’d point some things out that most people, who say off the cuff (and I’m not saying you are being off the cuff here) that they will renounce their citizenship, never think about when they say that. Did I know you are Native-American? Nope, but doesn’t really change my point. And you’re right, it’s a political debate I’m not going to get into here, because I’m not apologizing for what a bunch of white assholes did in the past. I do not agree with this current administration, in fact I outright loathe it, but this government as a whole does do some nice things around the world, when it’s not warmongering. I know, I work for probably the one department in the USG that does something good for others.
and renouncing one’s American citizenship for Canadian citizenship is a bad thing how?
as a Canadian citizen, you aren’t restricted to where you may travel in the world. Canada is one of the few nationalities that has unfettered access to every nation in the world.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t have to look over your back every single day and wonder whether you’ve done something wrong or “un-Canadian”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t have to worry about being 100 percent in the cold — if not found dead in a ditch — if you’re queer and others are somehow aware of this. this goes for employment law, domestic partnerships, banking, housing and so on.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t get called an “African-Canadian” in a vain attempt to sound “enlightened” by using the tool of “political correctness”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t get smothered with something as effusive as arrogant jingoism in the guise of “i’m more Canadian than you are”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t renounce your ethnic, cultural or spiritual affiliations when you become a citizen. you don’t “assimilate” under one language, under one parent religion or under one definition of what defines being Canadian in a futile effort of fabricating a so-called “melting pot”. the “patchwork quilt” approach works a whole lot better, you know.
as a Canadian citizen, there’s a lack of stubbornness to standards that make absolutely no sense in the 21st century — such as adhering to arbitrary English measurements and shoving down the faces of others that any one nation is “the best” nation in which to live, even if that takes in-your-face taunting guise of “CA-NA-DA! CA-NA-DA! CA-NA-DA!”
in Canada, the beer simply isn’t weak. you don’t have to sneak across the border to buy a two-four of Brador.
in Canada, it’s not unusual to meet a stranger at the bus stop and end up in a surprisingly intelligent conversation.
in Canada, you don’t go completely without healthcare.
in Canada, there’s little offence taken in being called the “51st state”, because Canadians know better than that. they don’t need to counter that with argument, because that would be stooping to a lower level. and since 2001, this has never been more apparent. besides, it’s better to laugh at it through wry comedy and motion pictures.
in Canada, you don’t have to fret about living in a large metropolitan area without halfway decent public transit to keep you mobile.
and the fact that you can renounce your Canadian citizenship for another nation and then come back to vist family later — all without being probed with scrutiny from being listed on “federal shitlists” — speaks reams in itself why there’s no reason not to leave the United States.
i dinna. some people prefer that kind of scrutiny. i’m not one of them. the U.S. is a “land of opportunity” for some. a very special some. the rest get told to sod off.
Canada has a thing in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms that says this:
4. (1) No House of Commons and no legislative assembly shall continue for longer than five years from the date fixed for the return of the writs at a general election of its members.
(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.
I’m not much into politics, but does the States have something similar?
I don’t think I ever said it is bad to be a Canadian citizen or that there was anything inherently wrong with Canada. I was just pointing out some facts. Whether you agree or disagree with those facts is not my problem.
i didn’t set out to make it sound so “rah-rah” for the red-and-white, but the reason, though not exactly fact (unless you’ve got some inroads with the U.S. gummint and the Department of Homeland Security that most of us do not), you proffered for holding onto an American citizenship — so as to avoid being “blacklisted” or “shitlisted” when visiting American relatives after renouncing citizenship — really went to the core of elucidating some of the possibly irrepairable, fundamental flaws in this American Experiment.
rather, what’s so wrong in making a commitment to leave a failed experiment? and if you come back to visit family in the old country, what incentive for the old country is there in putting you on a restricted list?
i argue that your country (or former country) has no business in putting you on a special list in any sense of the word — overt or covert. that’s the kind of policy-making which befell Germany, the Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, South Africa and Yugoslavia, as well as Joe McCarthy and the American Confederacy.
Trust me, they’re facts. I’m not going into details but, yes, I have some inroads in both the USG and Homeland Security department, along with INS.
Is it fucked up? Yes. Am I personally responsible for the actions my country is taking now? No. Can I help change it? Hopefully, in 2004. Do I fault anyone for wanting to renounce their U.S. citizenship? Nope. However, do I think Canada is the end-all, be-all country to live in? Definitely no. I go there at least twice a year and I personally have experienced racism by citizens because of my color, not my citizenship and have been harassed by law enforcement for the same. Things may seem hunky dory in the urban scene of the major cities, but venture out an hour into the countryside and it’s a whole different ball of wax.
So, don’t take it out on me because you have insecure feelings about your own place in the world. I’m just dealing with it.
*applause*
i apologise if i gave you the impression that i was taking any kind of frustration out on you. that was not my intent.
i can speak for my experiences both in the states and in Canada. i know discrimination and prejudice, much as it sounds like you do. unfortunately, i have kinda proven by unfortunately circumstance that one facet of discrimination faced here is certainly worse than in a number of other sovereign places in Western and Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim or elsewhere in the Americas.
if you compare the U.S. to, say, Mexico, Zimbabwe or Saudi Arabia, then sure, America looks good. but nothing frustrates or tires me more than when i hear an American approach me or anyone else, and in the same confrontation, tell me that not only is “America the greatest place in the world in which to live”, but also that, “your kind isn’t welcome here.”
i’ve travelled the Canadian countryside. like anywhere else, people are more conservative and have the tendency to examine you cautiously for being “different” or an “outsider” — even if you aren’t. but at least in Canada, i don’t have to worry nearly as much about someone pulling out a gun and blowing my head to pieces. or (more likely in my circumstance) filleting me with a knife, puncturing me with an ice pick or best yet, beating me to a pulp and either using blunt force trauma or breaking of the hyoid to get me to be quiet.
maybe i’m weird, but i can handle dirty looks and scowls a whole lot better than i can with implied or expressed threats upon my body or life.
for me, Canada has been an option for a very long time. so has New Zealand. and given the right environment, i’d just as likely end up as a Kiwi citizen. for others, that nation may be Canada, Japan (where one never really gets to become a “citizen”, per se), India, Chile, Australia, South Africa, Israel or even Egypt.
but i will suggest that the United States is not the end-all, be-all country that far too many people within its border tell me it is. there’s nothing worse than being persona non grata in the country you were born and raised.
Yes, it is my choice..and it’s something I’ve been thinking about for years. I’ve given it a lot of thought, on both ends. Looking at all the pros and cons of the situation, and more and more I find myself wishing I lived in another country, be it Canada or otherwise.
No you didn’t know I was Native American, however I pointed that out to let you know why I have my opinion on this government. I am glad you feel you work in a department of the USA governmental system that does some good for people, but in all honesty, I don’t know what department that would be as they all tend to have their problems and their predjudices.
*Grin* Well I’ve thought of Canada seriously as a new place for me to go…it’s in my listing along with a couple other countries. Anyway…… eventually I’ll figure out what it is I want to do…if I can get my husband to go along with it… LOL!
Also, I bet Joan didn’t figure this post would get an outright debate going among her friends! LOL! Right Joan? :)
*Applause* This there’s nothing worse than being persona non grata in the country you were born and raised. I can relate to.
Presidential executive order can basically supplant the Constitution. In fact, a presidential executive order could theoretically destroy the Constitution itself and replace the government with another institution in a single stroke. A presidentially executed/FEMA-managed “State of Emergency” has the same effect as well.
On the contrary, I hoped for just this! THank you all for posting here, I’ve seen some great views expressed. And, oddly, you all are actually in “violent agreement,” in your own strange ways.
Would be happy to do so — please do send me an email, I’m completely lost as to what you refer…and am not online for chat often enough when you are (or alert, at the times I’ve seen you on IM) to retain anything that you said to me :(
Ok, first, sorry about the anon posting. I’m too lazy to get yet another account somewhere.
With Iraq, enough is enough. I support what the government is doing, and I’m far more likely to be involved in it than probably any of the others here (I’m a reservist, did 10 1/2 years active duty).
If the security council passes a resolution authorizing force (giving any military action UN backing) will you all cheer the troops on?
Perhaps. The lack of world-wide support for the military action makes it far, far worse. But I mostly object to the Big Brother nature of the attacks on conscientious objectors…I understand the need for heightened security, but this is just a bit too much (hence my link to the article and my statement. It seems a rallying cry to me.)
P.S. Identify yourself! ^_^
I also rather enjoy Canada, that’s why I go back to Toronto at least twice a year. Hmm, well one reason I will say America is a pretty decent country is that you do have the choice to leave… I think this country was in a lot better shape, 9-11 notwithstanding, with previous administrations than the current. I’m really hoping that an administration change in 2004 will try and restore things to a sort of “status quo” if you will pre-2000. I totally agree the way things stand now in our country is totally fucked up. I work 2 blocks from the White House, not looking forward to suicide jihad at Ground Zero when war commences. I don’t think Bush is necessarily a bad person, but look at the people he has surrounded himself with:
John Ashcroft, head of Justice Department. This man is in charge of our civil liberties, and he lost a governor election… TO A DEAD MAN.
Dick Cheney, Vice President of the United States. Here is someone as a congressional senator during the 1980s voted no less than three times AGAINST measures brought up to institute embargoes against the pro-aparteid South African government.
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense. I think this picture from the 1980s tells the whole story.
I will say this one thing about American intervention… even though the Korean War was pretty much manufactured out of conditions forged by the U.S., if it wasn’t for the U.S. army, I’d be living in North Korea right now.
I think in the end, as Joan has said, that we agree… just have diffferent ways of showing it. ;)
With all this America bashing going around — and most of it justified — I just thought I’d add that Canada is not above reproach, specifically when it comes to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is entering its 21st year.
You see, entrenched in our Charter of supposedly unalienable rights is section 33, the so-called Notwithstanding Clause, which states explicitly that most of our fundamental rights can be overridden by one piece of federal or provincial legislation.
From the Canada’s Parliament website (http://www.parl.gc.ca/): “Section 33(1) of the Charter of Rights permits Parliament or a provincial legislature to adopt legislation to override section 2 of the Charter (containing such fundamental rights as freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, freedom of association and freedom of assembly) and sections 7-15 of the Charter (containing the right to life, liberty and security of the person, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, freedom from arbitrary arrest or detention, a number of other legal rights, and the right to equality). Such a use of the notwithstanding power must be contained in an Act, and not subordinate legislation (regulations), and must be express rather than implied.
Under section 33(2) of the Charter of Rights, on the invocation of section 33(1) by Parliament or a legislature, the overriding legislation renders the relevant Charter right or rights “not entrenched” for the purposes of that legislation. In effect, parliamentary sovereignty is revived by the exercise of the override power in that specific legislative context. Section 33(3) provides that each exercise of the notwithstanding power has a lifespan of five years or less, after which it expires, unless Parliament or the legislature re-enacts it under section 33(4) for a further period of five years or less.”
While some may allow for certain rights to be suspended during a “state of emergency” — like Trudeau’s invocation of the War Measures Act during the October Crisis (which, for the record, I personally do not agree with) — this section basically entitles our government to bury our freedoms on a whim.
And it doesn’t just serve a theoretical application. This is a clause that the government of Quebec has exploited to further its Nazi-like language laws.
We are certainly not above reproach.
I think that before acting quite so rashly, you may want to review the following passage from the Oath of Citizenship:
“I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic”
The constitution, although it shows its age in some inclusions and omissions, is still built on a largely agreeable set of principles (eg. rule of law, equality before the law, civil liberties, and democracy) and as such is probably something you would like to continue to support. A renunciation of citizenship is not a withdrawal of support for the current government or administration (to whom no allegiance is demanded from citizens) nor is it a protest against the rest of the citizenry; it is an abandonment of one’s commitment to this largely agreeable set of principles.
If you renounce your citizenship, you are ceding your stewardship of this piece of democracy to the jingoists and to the rednecks and to the spooks. Essentially, to the very (domestic) enemies that you have a duty to defend it against. Feel free to move out to another country — hell, I’ve never lived in the States myself — but if you choose to renounce your citizenship, at least do so fully aware of the gravity and true nature of that action.
For the curious, I do have US citizenship (though, as you may have guessed, I also have others)
Well, I am getting sick of this country real real fast…..I am on the verge of moving to another country and renouncing my citizenship here because our government is nothing but a bunch of idiotic money hungry assholes with only the interest of padding their own pockets and not helping the people of this country or doing what they can for the people in this country. If this country’s government would keep it’s nose out of everyone else’s business then perhaps things could get better here in this country, but I somehow doubt that.
You’re not the first American that I’ve heard voice this type of opinion, and it’s pretty easy to get a feel for the climate down there.
Kick him out of office – you (the people) have the power – no? :-)
Well, that’s easy for you to say, Little Miss “I left the United States years ago and am never coming back”!
Bush is a one-termer, that’s for sure. Better to stick it out the next two years and hope things get better afterwards. Once you denounce your American citizenship, you can never get it back, and probably end up on a lotta federal shitlists. Might wanna keep that in mind if you have family here and stuff…
say, would you mind keeping a ear pressed to the floor for professional leads in the TO area that may be of great interest to me?
sponsorship would be key — and the holy grail — but the commitment for me to immigrate as i began to halfway try in 1996 and 1997 no longer bears the solitary ideological underpinnings i retained then as it once did. now, it’s a matter of my safety, security, sense of knowing i have reason to be there and efforts to avert being, ummm, professionally blacklisted (if you’re scratching your head here, see 2001 lawsuit for reference and how american HR people most likely know me by first name thanks to certain HR publications. email me off-LJ if you’re still befuddled).
i’ve never felt hopeful or safe here. but that’s never been the case for me in any of TO, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Windsor, Vancouver or points between. besides, feeling safe imbues order, and order imbues structure.
it’s excessively difficult to build with structure here these days.
anyhow.
SUPPOSEDLY we have the power, but it’s really frightening to realize that we the people have so little when it comes to our government…. anyway………….. I am still thinking of leaving the country..
Well, considering I am Native American Indian, I don’t have much say so in the government of this country to begin with because we Native Americans are still looked down on and persecuted and bullied even to this day, but that’s a political debate I do not want to broach at this time as I tend to get highly heated up over it. And since I feel this government, THE USA has no right to govern over me anyway, my tribe does, I still have to adhere to the federal laws that are put forth. However even our own government ignores the Constitution and the bill of rights when they want something or someone… Anyway…. I have family here, but only siblings and an aunt and grandmother…. My grandmother would not know if I left and my aunt would tell me to do what I think is best, and my siblings could care less what I do…
I’m a very proud Canadian… we have a good place up here. You’d probably make a good one, you’ve got the anti-american down anyway *winks*
Well, good luck… I have hope that it’ll all turn out alright (though, it still doesn’t make it right).
Of course, it’s your choice. I just thought I’d point some things out that most people, who say off the cuff (and I’m not saying you are being off the cuff here) that they will renounce their citizenship, never think about when they say that. Did I know you are Native-American? Nope, but doesn’t really change my point. And you’re right, it’s a political debate I’m not going to get into here, because I’m not apologizing for what a bunch of white assholes did in the past. I do not agree with this current administration, in fact I outright loathe it, but this government as a whole does do some nice things around the world, when it’s not warmongering. I know, I work for probably the one department in the USG that does something good for others.
and renouncing one’s American citizenship for Canadian citizenship is a bad thing how?
as a Canadian citizen, you aren’t restricted to where you may travel in the world. Canada is one of the few nationalities that has unfettered access to every nation in the world.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t have to look over your back every single day and wonder whether you’ve done something wrong or “un-Canadian”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t have to worry about being 100 percent in the cold — if not found dead in a ditch — if you’re queer and others are somehow aware of this. this goes for employment law, domestic partnerships, banking, housing and so on.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t get called an “African-Canadian” in a vain attempt to sound “enlightened” by using the tool of “political correctness”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t get smothered with something as effusive as arrogant jingoism in the guise of “i’m more Canadian than you are”.
as a Canadian citizen, you don’t renounce your ethnic, cultural or spiritual affiliations when you become a citizen. you don’t “assimilate” under one language, under one parent religion or under one definition of what defines being Canadian in a futile effort of fabricating a so-called “melting pot”. the “patchwork quilt” approach works a whole lot better, you know.
as a Canadian citizen, there’s a lack of stubbornness to standards that make absolutely no sense in the 21st century — such as adhering to arbitrary English measurements and shoving down the faces of others that any one nation is “the best” nation in which to live, even if that takes in-your-face taunting guise of “CA-NA-DA! CA-NA-DA! CA-NA-DA!”
in Canada, the beer simply isn’t weak. you don’t have to sneak across the border to buy a two-four of Brador.
in Canada, it’s not unusual to meet a stranger at the bus stop and end up in a surprisingly intelligent conversation.
in Canada, you don’t go completely without healthcare.
in Canada, there’s little offence taken in being called the “51st state”, because Canadians know better than that. they don’t need to counter that with argument, because that would be stooping to a lower level. and since 2001, this has never been more apparent. besides, it’s better to laugh at it through wry comedy and motion pictures.
in Canada, you don’t have to fret about living in a large metropolitan area without halfway decent public transit to keep you mobile.
and the fact that you can renounce your Canadian citizenship for another nation and then come back to vist family later — all without being probed with scrutiny from being listed on “federal shitlists” — speaks reams in itself why there’s no reason not to leave the United States.
i dinna. some people prefer that kind of scrutiny. i’m not one of them. the U.S. is a “land of opportunity” for some. a very special some. the rest get told to sod off.
Canada has a thing in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms that says this:
4. (1) No House of Commons and no legislative assembly shall continue for longer than five years from the date fixed for the return of the writs at a general election of its members.
(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.
http://www.laurentia.com/ccrf/ccrf.htm#ff
I’m not much into politics, but does the States have something similar?
I don’t think I ever said it is bad to be a Canadian citizen or that there was anything inherently wrong with Canada. I was just pointing out some facts. Whether you agree or disagree with those facts is not my problem.
i didn’t set out to make it sound so “rah-rah” for the red-and-white, but the reason, though not exactly fact (unless you’ve got some inroads with the U.S. gummint and the Department of Homeland Security that most of us do not), you proffered for holding onto an American citizenship — so as to avoid being “blacklisted” or “shitlisted” when visiting American relatives after renouncing citizenship — really went to the core of elucidating some of the possibly irrepairable, fundamental flaws in this American Experiment.
rather, what’s so wrong in making a commitment to leave a failed experiment? and if you come back to visit family in the old country, what incentive for the old country is there in putting you on a restricted list?
i argue that your country (or former country) has no business in putting you on a special list in any sense of the word — overt or covert. that’s the kind of policy-making which befell Germany, the Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, South Africa and Yugoslavia, as well as Joe McCarthy and the American Confederacy.
Trust me, they’re facts. I’m not going into details but, yes, I have some inroads in both the USG and Homeland Security department, along with INS.
Is it fucked up? Yes. Am I personally responsible for the actions my country is taking now? No. Can I help change it? Hopefully, in 2004. Do I fault anyone for wanting to renounce their U.S. citizenship? Nope. However, do I think Canada is the end-all, be-all country to live in? Definitely no. I go there at least twice a year and I personally have experienced racism by citizens because of my color, not my citizenship and have been harassed by law enforcement for the same. Things may seem hunky dory in the urban scene of the major cities, but venture out an hour into the countryside and it’s a whole different ball of wax.
So, don’t take it out on me because you have insecure feelings about your own place in the world. I’m just dealing with it.
*applause*
i apologise if i gave you the impression that i was taking any kind of frustration out on you. that was not my intent.
i can speak for my experiences both in the states and in Canada. i know discrimination and prejudice, much as it sounds like you do. unfortunately, i have kinda proven by unfortunately circumstance that one facet of discrimination faced here is certainly worse than in a number of other sovereign places in Western and Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim or elsewhere in the Americas.
if you compare the U.S. to, say, Mexico, Zimbabwe or Saudi Arabia, then sure, America looks good. but nothing frustrates or tires me more than when i hear an American approach me or anyone else, and in the same confrontation, tell me that not only is “America the greatest place in the world in which to live”, but also that, “your kind isn’t welcome here.”
i’ve travelled the Canadian countryside. like anywhere else, people are more conservative and have the tendency to examine you cautiously for being “different” or an “outsider” — even if you aren’t. but at least in Canada, i don’t have to worry nearly as much about someone pulling out a gun and blowing my head to pieces. or (more likely in my circumstance) filleting me with a knife, puncturing me with an ice pick or best yet, beating me to a pulp and either using blunt force trauma or breaking of the hyoid to get me to be quiet.
maybe i’m weird, but i can handle dirty looks and scowls a whole lot better than i can with implied or expressed threats upon my body or life.
for me, Canada has been an option for a very long time. so has New Zealand. and given the right environment, i’d just as likely end up as a Kiwi citizen. for others, that nation may be Canada, Japan (where one never really gets to become a “citizen”, per se), India, Chile, Australia, South Africa, Israel or even Egypt.
but i will suggest that the United States is not the end-all, be-all country that far too many people within its border tell me it is. there’s nothing worse than being persona non grata in the country you were born and raised.
Yes, it is my choice..and it’s something I’ve been thinking about for years. I’ve given it a lot of thought, on both ends. Looking at all the pros and cons of the situation, and more and more I find myself wishing I lived in another country, be it Canada or otherwise.
No you didn’t know I was Native American, however I pointed that out to let you know why I have my opinion on this government. I am glad you feel you work in a department of the USA governmental system that does some good for people, but in all honesty, I don’t know what department that would be as they all tend to have their problems and their predjudices.
*Grin* Well I’ve thought of Canada seriously as a new place for me to go…it’s in my listing along with a couple other countries. Anyway…… eventually I’ll figure out what it is I want to do…if I can get my husband to go along with it… LOL!
Also, I bet Joan didn’t figure this post would get an outright debate going among her friends! LOL! Right Joan? :)
*Applause* This there’s nothing worse than being persona non grata in the country you were born and raised. I can relate to.
http://www.kaosol.net/~mackys/irreg/content/2003-02/Warmonger.jpg
As for what we can do about him, well, I’m not very good with a rifle, but I’m getting better…
Ha! I only kid! I’d never even think about threatening the life of anyone, least of all a sitting president!
http://www.vpc.org/graphics/roofpatch.gif
-Ben
Presidential executive order can basically supplant the Constitution. In fact, a presidential executive order could theoretically destroy the Constitution itself and replace the government with another institution in a single stroke. A presidentially executed/FEMA-managed “State of Emergency” has the same effect as well.
On the contrary, I hoped for just this! THank you all for posting here, I’ve seen some great views expressed. And, oddly, you all are actually in “violent agreement,” in your own strange ways.
Would be happy to do so — please do send me an email, I’m completely lost as to what you refer…and am not online for chat often enough when you are (or alert, at the times I’ve seen you on IM) to retain anything that you said to me :(
http://www.usaid.gov/ofda/
Ok, first, sorry about the anon posting. I’m too lazy to get yet another account somewhere.
With Iraq, enough is enough. I support what the government is doing, and I’m far more likely to be involved in it than probably any of the others here (I’m a reservist, did 10 1/2 years active duty).
If the security council passes a resolution authorizing force (giving any military action UN backing) will you all cheer the troops on?
Perhaps. The lack of world-wide support for the military action makes it far, far worse. But I mostly object to the Big Brother nature of the attacks on conscientious objectors…I understand the need for heightened security, but this is just a bit too much (hence my link to the article and my statement. It seems a rallying cry to me.)
P.S. Identify yourself! ^_^
I also rather enjoy Canada, that’s why I go back to Toronto at least twice a year. Hmm, well one reason I will say America is a pretty decent country is that you do have the choice to leave… I think this country was in a lot better shape, 9-11 notwithstanding, with previous administrations than the current. I’m really hoping that an administration change in 2004 will try and restore things to a sort of “status quo” if you will pre-2000. I totally agree the way things stand now in our country is totally fucked up. I work 2 blocks from the White House, not looking forward to suicide jihad at Ground Zero when war commences. I don’t think Bush is necessarily a bad person, but look at the people he has surrounded himself with:
John Ashcroft, head of Justice Department. This man is in charge of our civil liberties, and he lost a governor election… TO A DEAD MAN.
Dick Cheney, Vice President of the United States. Here is someone as a congressional senator during the 1980s voted no less than three times AGAINST measures brought up to institute embargoes against the pro-aparteid South African government.
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense. I think this picture from the 1980s tells the whole story.
I will say this one thing about American intervention… even though the Korean War was pretty much manufactured out of conditions forged by the U.S., if it wasn’t for the U.S. army, I’d be living in North Korea right now.
I think in the end, as Joan has said, that we agree… just have diffferent ways of showing it. ;)
With all this America bashing going around — and most of it justified — I just thought I’d add that Canada is not above reproach, specifically when it comes to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is entering its 21st year.
You see, entrenched in our Charter of supposedly unalienable rights is section 33, the so-called Notwithstanding Clause, which states explicitly that most of our fundamental rights can be overridden by one piece of federal or provincial legislation.
From the Canada’s Parliament website (http://www.parl.gc.ca/): “Section 33(1) of the Charter of Rights permits Parliament or a provincial legislature to adopt legislation to override section 2 of the Charter (containing such fundamental rights as freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, freedom of association and freedom of assembly) and sections 7-15 of the Charter (containing the right to life, liberty and security of the person, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, freedom from arbitrary arrest or detention, a number of other legal rights, and the right to equality). Such a use of the notwithstanding power must be contained in an Act, and not subordinate legislation (regulations), and must be express rather than implied.
Under section 33(2) of the Charter of Rights, on the invocation of section 33(1) by Parliament or a legislature, the overriding legislation renders the relevant Charter right or rights “not entrenched” for the purposes of that legislation. In effect, parliamentary sovereignty is revived by the exercise of the override power in that specific legislative context. Section 33(3) provides that each exercise of the notwithstanding power has a lifespan of five years or less, after which it expires, unless Parliament or the legislature re-enacts it under section 33(4) for a further period of five years or less.”
While some may allow for certain rights to be suspended during a “state of emergency” — like Trudeau’s invocation of the War Measures Act during the October Crisis (which, for the record, I personally do not agree with) — this section basically entitles our government to bury our freedoms on a whim.
And it doesn’t just serve a theoretical application. This is a clause that the government of Quebec has exploited to further its Nazi-like language laws.
We are certainly not above reproach.
I think that before acting quite so rashly, you may want to review the following passage from the Oath of Citizenship:
“I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic”
The constitution, although it shows its age in some inclusions and omissions, is still built on a largely agreeable set of principles (eg. rule of law, equality before the law, civil liberties, and democracy) and as such is probably something you would like to continue to support. A renunciation of citizenship is not a withdrawal of support for the current government or administration (to whom no allegiance is demanded from citizens) nor is it a protest against the rest of the citizenry; it is an abandonment of one’s commitment to this largely agreeable set of principles.
If you renounce your citizenship, you are ceding your stewardship of this piece of democracy to the jingoists and to the rednecks and to the spooks. Essentially, to the very (domestic) enemies that you have a duty to defend it against. Feel free to move out to another country — hell, I’ve never lived in the States myself — but if you choose to renounce your citizenship, at least do so fully aware of the gravity and true nature of that action.
For the curious, I do have US citizenship (though, as you may have guessed, I also have others)